the beaches and waters couldn't be more beautiful. take a boat ride, go fishing or just lay in the sun. we've got coastline to explore and wildlife to photograph. and there's world class dining with our world famous seafood. so for a great vacation this year, come to the gulf. its all fabulous but i give florida the edge. right after mississippi. you mean alabama. say louisiana or there's no dessert. this invitation is brought to you by bp and all of us who call the gulf home. all right. i like to say there's always a bull market somewhere, and i promise to try to find it just for you, right here on "mad money." i'm jim cramer, and i'll see you tomorrow. good evening. i'm michelle caruso-cabrera in for larry kudlow. this is "the kudlow report." speaker john boehner calls the house back into session for

sunday night. that stokes investor hopes for a fiscal cliff deal and this coming just a few hours after harry reid's comments sent the dow into a tailspin. we have complete coverage in this developing story which is happening tonight as we speak. also, as supplies from the obama team, ep achieve lisa jackson stepping down. can the coal companies finally breathe a sigh of relief? guess what happened in britain when the uk banned handguns. the surprising result that could change the gun control debate. "the kudlow report" start ises right now. the big news tonight, still the developments in washington on the fiscal cliff, eamon javers joins us with the details. >> good evening, meshel. capitol hill sources tell cnbc that congressional leaders are planning to go to the white house tomorrow to meet with president barack obama and it is not entirely clear at this point

when that meeting will take place and details are still being hammered out and we saw today a blistering series of rhetorical jabs from one side to the other and it's not clear as a result of all that whether a deal can, in fact, get hammered out in the remaining time before new year's eve and take a listen to senate republican leader mitch mcconnell earlier today explaining the problems he's facing in washington. take a listen. >> the truth is we're coming up against a hard deadline here and as i said, this is a conversation we should have had months ago. and republicans aren't about to write a blank check for anything senate democrats put forward just because we find ourselves at the edge of the cliff. >> we do know that the house of representatives has been told that the members there should be back in town here in washington expecting votes on sunday at 6:30 p.m. on sunday and we don't be what that will be and we

should get more clarity on that tomorrow if there is, in account fa, a meeting at the white house we might find out what they're hammering out behind closed doors. >> thus far, democrats have refused to do any meaningful entitlement reform and republicans have refused to do anything related to taxes. we both know each side wants a piece of the other to do those exact things and both sides still refuse. is there anything that means those two factors have changed. >> we saw it on the stock market today and we saw the wild swings as news developments happened throughout the course of the day. it impacted the market throughout date and if that continues that kind of pressure from the outside could really put some force on these members of congress to come together for a deal. the closer we get the more pressure from the outside they're going feel and i think it makes it easier, not harder to get a deal in the last 48 to 24 hour space lot of folks have said that's the sweet spot for a deal anyway and there's another group that says we're going over this cliff, if even just

temporarily, michelle. >> thank you, eamon. >> just days from heading back to washington, congressman aaron shaw, republican from illinois. thanks for joining us, representative. you got the call and have to go back to washington sunday, 6:30, what, if anything, are you going to vote on. do you know? >> hopefully the senate would have taken action and it's two days until sunday and the house has aked and we passed hr-8 which was a clean extension for every american and the senate doesn't agree with us and all we get from harry reid, you saw a fiery rhetoric which doesn't only do good for the markets and it doesn't do good for main street businesses and individuals that are worried about what's going to happen on january 1. we don't need rhetoric out of the senate and the houses worked its will and the houses passed its will and we passed

sequestration. >> with all due respect and listen, you and i are on the same side of the aisle. this country doesn't have a revenue problem. this country has a spending problem, but our side lost. i have posed a question to democrats and the question to republicans. to democrats i said, listen, what if republicans woke up tomorrow and passed tackes on everybody that you wanted to pass taxes on, would you at a minimum, means tax medicare for millionaires and the vast majority said no and to republicans i say, listen, what if the democrats had an epiphany and said representative ryan was right. we should turn medicare into a voucher system. would you guys be willing to raise taxes on, say, millionaires even though you don't think the country has a revenue problem. would you be willing to do that? >> yes, michelle. in fact, an overwhelming majority of republicans in the house last week would have supported john boehner's proposal to raise taxes on millionaires and we couldn't get

a single democrat to join us in this effort. furthermore, michelle, after the election this past november where you rightly say -- but so did a majority in the house of representatives as republicans we have a responsibility to stay true to our principles john boehner said to the president you what? you won, but so did we and so we'll meet you half way. you said you wanted to raise taxes and generate $800 billion in revenue over ten years and we'll give you the revenue and we'll give you exactly what you want which is 800 billion in revenue, but let's make good on the campaign pledge which is $3 in cuts for every $1 in revenue and president obama didn't meet us half way and he didn't only offer $2.4 billion in cuts and he wanted twice the revenue. he said 800 billion is what he said during the election. >> and 6 trillion. >> yeah. >> spending is not the problem. >> no, i agree with you. >> i'm sorry. >> revenue is not the problem. >> yeah. >> it's been a long week, hasn't it? >> good luck on sunday, let's

see what happens and we'll have you back afterward and see what's going on. >> let's get the market reaction. eamon hinted at this, and capital growth management and brian kelly, the co-founder of shelter harbor capital. can we bring up that chart again, guys so people can understand what happened today? we are showing you a one-day chart of both the dow, all three, the dow, the nasdaq and the s&p. this is a one-day chart. so harry reid comes out and says, folks, we are going off the cliff and the markets start to tumble and tumble and tumble and tumble and then 3:00 in the afternoon you see the sharp rise up and the house is coming back the in the session on sunday night to do something. we don't know what and the markets managed to get back to flat. so ken heebner, the market seemed to care about the deal getting done. is it going to get done? if it doesn't get done does that mean we'll have a massive sell-off? what do you think? >> well, i think the market's been very fearful that a deal would not get done for some

time, but you see, in this market, it fell down after obama got reelected, but then it's been working its way back up. the fact is that i think a deal will get done and the key part is avoiding incomes under 250,000 and that's probably what they're going do. >> why is that market participant or are you speaking politically there? >> no, i'm speaking as a market participant because the spending for income for people under 250,000 in income is an important economy and that part of the economic spectrum and what they have in their pocket affects what they spend. >> and i get your point. we're a consumer-driven economy. broadway an kelly, your assessment about what happens if we don't get a deal? what happens in the markets? >> i think you saw it this morning and it looked like we're doing a full cliff dive and the market started to tank. i agree with the consumer. look at the consumer con if ied thens morning and that was

driving this economy. we had consumer confidence at five-year highs and it was awful and all due to this uncertainty over the cliff. so if we can get some kind of deal that would be very positive for the consumer and i think we'd get a market rally. if we don't, look out. >> is the damage already done, brian? when we see what happened with retail sales and coming far weaker than a lot of people expected and you can point to a lot of things and one of them being the fiscal cliff, has a lot of the damage been done, brian? >> i think it has. that's a good point and i think what you need to do is put your trader hat on and say i'm going to trade this for a hope rally, but if you're a longer term investor i would use any type of rally to take any profits that i have because i think a lot of damage has been done over the last year. businesses have been paralyzed and now the consumer has been paralyzed. what advice do you have among people trying to invest amidst this uncertainty. >> i think long term they're much more important for factors at work than what happens with

this budget deal. >> thank goodness. >>a you will we would do if we went over the cliff from a tax point of view is install the tax structure from the clinton administration. >> we'll show people right now that you like homebuilders and you like retailers, right? put that up. heebner likes retail, home building, what's the third one? automobiles. >> all early-cycle stocks. i like these stocks because the economy is going to be -- has a multi-year period of growth ahead of us and the biggest driver is rising housing prices and increase in residential construction and apartments and single family. we have an increasing shortage of housing in this family and we cut the production of houses way below the household formation and the industry is going to -- the construction industry will grow and that's going to stimulate the economy because its multiplier affects it. the biggest single impediment has been the huge decline in housing prices for the last five

years. >> this is the first time since 2006 -- 2012 would be the first time since 2006 that home prices actually rise from a year ago. so one little piece of good news tonight. guys, thanks so much for joining us. ken heebner and brian kelly, you can see him on fast money. >> the markets are optimistic for now, should there be? to discuss the political side of all this, joanne green, and jonathan kohl edgeio of american crossroads. good to see you. jonathan, let me start with you. what's your betting here? are we going get a deal done before monday? >> all eyes ort senate right now. the congressman had it right. one of the things we lose sight of is two-thirds of the pieces of the negotiations are being held by the democrats and whenever harry reid opens his mouth everything is held up in thatted abouty and they passed a bill several months ago and it was a straight democrat vote and it wasn't something that had

influence in the house and that's where all of the action is and whether he can get something done in that body is what we need to be looking at. >> i'm sure you see it differently. harry reid, they passed a bill and the reverse of what they said is the facts and the senate passed a bill extending everyone's tax cuts under 250k. and boehner can move the senate bill through and he's refusing to because he doesn't want the optics and doesn't want to pass a bill with the majority of democratic votes and he doesn't want to go hat in hand to nancy pelosi. >> does this get easier once boehner gets reelected as majority leader? >> hopefully we don't get to that point, but that senate bill did not get a single republican vote. >> jonathan, answer my question. does this get easier? >> let's pretend we're not going have a deal and january 3rd comes and boehner, he hopes gets

reelected as speaker of the house, then the deal get easier to get done? >> this isn't even an issue. >> oh, come on! you know what i'm asking here! >> speaker boehner will get reelected and that's not the issue and the issue is not to pass something through the senate that can go on to pass the house. >> john, do you think that the republicans bill which essentially goes after programs for the poor increases military spending? so it adds to the deficit and only is willing to raise taxes on millionaires and above and that is getting through the senate. so what you're saying the reverse is true when you look at the house. boehner can pass the senate bill tomorrow as harry reid said today, but he doesn't want to do it with democrats and he wants a majority of the majority. is there anything wrong? wouldn't you like a bipartisan coming together here and everybody's in this? >> it would not be at all, and any of the plans at all, joy. and they campaign on three to one spending on we haven't seen anything like that come out of

the senate. and they will not do anything to come out of the senate. >> john boehner can't get his own caulk us to take a vote on his idea to only raise the tax rates. he can't even get his own caucus to do that and he's been humiliated over and over by his own caulk us and he can solve it tomorrow. >> joy ann, harry reid hasn't passed a budget in years. >> he's passed a solution to this crisis. we're talking about the fiscal cliff. >> it hasn't got ensigned into law. there's no success yet there. >> boehner should move it tomorrow. he should just do that. >> jonathan? >> listen, the president campaigned on a three to one spending reduction and we're not see anything spending here. democrats controlled two-thirds of the chips. >> joy ann, why is this all about taxes? >> one reelection and the -- it doesn't do that much spending. >> it's been all about taxes. >> all about raising taxes. >> there's this obsession with

raising taxes. >> it was to go after school lunches and elderly care, health care for poor kids and increased spending. >> no, no, no, they want entitlement reform, joy ann. why this obsession with cutting old people's medicare? >> it's not an obsession about cutting benefits to the elderly, joy ann. it's about reforming medicare over time so at some point in the future we don't tell an 80-year-old you know what? you're not going get the medicare cha you thought you would have. this is about not hurting the elderly. >> the republican solution is to hand 80-year-olds a voucher and saying good luck, go into the markets and see what you can get. >> 80-year-olds are not any part of it. they're 20, 30 years from now. the president's idea of spending cuts had to do with $700 billion worth of medicare cuts in the past two years ago.

>> and paul ryan endorsed it. >> paul ryan endorsed it and that was in ryan's plan. thanks, guys. >> there was another surprise coming out of washington today. the unexpected resignation of ep achieve lisa jackson. why is she lng now? is this good news for coal miners, frackers and the keystone pipeline and we're about to get more on that story just ahead. >> don't forget, free market capitalism is the best path to prosperity and not crushing regulations. the kudlow report is coming right back. mine was earned off vietnam in 1968. over the south pacific in 1943. i got mine in iraq, 2003. usaa auto insurance is often handed down from generation to generation. because it offers a superior level of protection, and because usaa's commitment to serve

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breaking news now. the associated press reporting that retired general norman schwarzkopf one of the heroes of the first gulf war has died in tampa, florida. he was 78 years old. as we know more we'll bring it to you. lisa jackson announce shed is stepping down. why the prompt departure and could this be new initiatives like the keystone pipeline and might we get worse than she is? is this possible? chris warner, author of the new book "liberal war on transparency." you discovered she was using a secret e-mail as well.

that's why you know a lot about her. why is she leaving? >> we revealed that she had a fake identity and it immediately became a question of when, not if, but last week the department of justice agree to begin producing 12,000 richard windsor, that's her alias or one of them i'm told by someone on the inside e-mail beings on epa regard on coal. it was probably a good time to get out given that a, she had to leave with the -- false identity. i'm sure she gets inundated by people complaining about her and trying to get any real business done might be difficult with an e-mail that everybody knows. do you buy that at all? >> that's great. why the fake identity? >> everything they've said so far is nonresponsive.

she needs to get advice from aides. that's great. you have an exemption under the freedom of information act, why the false identity and the unwashed masses know her public e-mail address and it's head of the environmental protection agency can be very difficult, but why the false identity. you can set up many things other than hiding your identity and 12,000 e-mails just discussing the war on coal. that's a lot. why the false identity is the question that continues to be begged and hopefully we can answer. >> there wasn't a regulation that she didn't like and she didn't want to impose. >> can the coal companies breathe easier now? can we see new power generation happening in this country or are we going get someone just like her because they'll want to work for president obama? >> right. here's the thing. she was hailed by rolling stone as the most progressive ep

achieve ever, but at the end of the day she was effectuating a radical agenda set by the president. this war on coal was set forth when he gave his shellacking press conference and said there were other ways to skin that cat. so you're going to get somebody who wants the job to effectuate his agenda and it won't be anybody much better, i suppose, but the good news may lie on what we find. there are 12,000 e-mails that by their very nature assuming the false identity that she didn't want the public to see and these on coal.00 e-mails addressing maybe there was news in there that was candid and because they're substantively with a tentative position with the war on coal. >> the reports that she may be considered to be the next president of princeton university. do you know anything about that? have you heard anything about that? can you possibly get that job? running a university now is about raising money. would sheeb able to do that? >> she certainly alienated the

business community. she's made a lot of friends in the business community. so it's possible. i only know rumors about princeton, so i'm tempted to say we can improve princeton and that wouldn't be fair of me to say. the good news is we have doj agreeing to produce 12,000 e-mails that by their nature richard windsor doesn't want the public to see. >> got it. thank you, chris. >> he used the phrase called rent seekers and it's an economic term. that's a business that doesn't actually want to compete. they actually just like to call it broad regulators to make sure there's tiles of regulation in place so they don't have to compete anymore. so they just actually seek rent from the space that they managed to occupy for everybody else. >> the world's second oldest profession. >> yes. so related to politics. all right, chris. that was fun. thank you. coming up next, the $380 billion withdrawal. ordinary american investors selling their shares of stock funds in a very big way.

that story when we come back. [ male announcer ] at scottrade,

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stopped american investors from selling stocks five gleers a row. an associated press analysis shows individual investors have pulled at least $380 billion u.s. stock funds from april 2007 and it's the first time ordinary investors have sold during a bull market since world war ii. mortgage rates headed down last week according to freddie mac. the 30-year fixed rate average was 3.35%, just 0.04% from the 40-year lowest on record since 1971. the average on 30-year fixed rates was 3.66%, the lowest in 65 years. michelle, it seems like a good time to buy. >> yeah, maybe. >> thank you, seema, if you can get the loan. why when we just upgraded their trade status in we're about to get answers from a russian expert just ahead. [ male announcer ] this december, remember --

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report. i'm michelle caruso-cabrera. >> gun control advocates talk about great laws in gun

ownership if great britain. there's only one problem, they don't work. they seem to have made things even worse. we'll talk more about that and it happens to almost all of us, a close family or friend dies and we go through the grieving process and top american psychiatrists say you should take a pill for that. is this the latest way to cope with grief or to cut healthcare costs. >> ban adoption from one nation to the next. it's about to happen in russia. where moscow is going to approve a ban on american couples only from adopteding russian children. we just improved our trade relations with them, why are they doing this? have our relations with the putin regime deteriorated that much? senior fellow with the center of transatlantic relations at johns hopkins university. what is this really about? >> this is about vladimir putin playing to his base which is nationalistic and poor as he's losing moscow and it's about

vladimir putin sending a signal to the united states that he does not want us interfering in russia's internal affairs and this is a convenient way to send that message. >> let's, explain why they would think that with this trade status improvement there was a little clause that said if someone violates human rights in russia you're not going to be able to get a vase to get in here. what is this law called? >> the magity insky bill. >> sergei died in prison. who helped kill him. >> the reason he was in prison, he's a lawyer. he was defending a guy who is a frequent guest on cnbc, william rattner who got ripped off by russian police officerses. >> yes. those police officers were promoted and browder has pushed the bill forward with the white

house to go forward with it and he worked with congress with a bunch of allies who supported him. >> i've been reading kissinger's book on china, but he raises's broader question which is important. unfathomable as it is to americans there are parts of the world where they do not believe in alienable rights, right? they don't believe in human rights in the way that we do. >> exactly. and when we try to impose it on them they consider it a violation of their sovereignty. >> exactly. >> china feels that way often. russia, same thing. how far do we go in promoting human rights? the trade off that we'll get here. the law gets passed and human rights violators in russia can't come year and now 1,000 children don't come to the united states and people who want them don't get them. >> my personal view, no. they're glad to take our money and they've long had to put their money overseas, but they do not want human rights promotion and we've seen that inside russia and we've seen

that against the crockdown on the internet and this is just the latest interaction of the series of things going back for more than a year against the political opposition and what they see is the u.s.-sponsored frankly regime change. >> how far do we go? >> if we didn't do business with countries that violate human rights, we would don't business from china and let's not kid anybody, that's not going happen. >> i think ultimately the u.s. and the white house which largely tilts toward the economic emphasis of the relationship and the white house has to realize and it is realizing that the congress and other elements of the american political establishment has to get along with whatever management they have in russia and the white house has played a tightrope promoting trade and also saying they promote human rights and you cannot go on like this forever. >> i know he's had different titles and he's running the country. >> he's the boss.

is he a thug? to me he looks like a thug. >> he's a very tough guy and those who don't go along with him have to go a long way and the u.s. is seen as someone who won't go along with the plan and thus becoming increasingly the enemy and his own support is diminishing and they largely support the magnitsky bill and it's in the provinces where the nationalistic moore support is increasing the base that he needs to keep onboard and that's another reason why he's acting the way he did on this bill. >> we appreciate it. ? thank you. >> europe's fiscal woes dominated the american markets most of the year. >> the fragile european economy not out of the woods just yet. here is jimmy pathakukas of the institute. it was "barron's" just this week. this is the year to invest in europe. do you disagree with that or can

the two work together? >> well, you know, they say the united states don't fight the fed. in europe you would say don't fight the ecb as long as they believe that they would do whatever it takes to keep the euro together, i guess that's a positive, but remember, you have an economy back in recession that was in terrible shape to begin with and i think you have a lot of austerity fatigue going on spain, italy, portugal, certainly greece. so you have those economic woes. the euro is not going to thrive and it may survive thanks to the ecb, but you're not going to get that economy to thrive, and the fiscal union ask those are very slow going and though they may be moving quickly by european standards and i've been given the magnitude of the problem going very slowly. >> how should people be thinking about this? the average american, and they've been hearing about it for so long and they're not sure it will affect their pocketbook.

do you think they will? >> and there's this incredible chance that greece will leave and the dominos will begin to fall. i think that's unluikely to happen as long as the ecb is willing to support that currency, but will it thrive? will those economies boom? i don't think so, i think it will be another year of recession and you will find individual opportunities and the stock picker's market and far as it's a strong growth, they're not there yet. >> thanks so much for joining us. good to see you tonight. >> you heard piers morgan talk about it with larry last week. after school shooting massacre in scotland in 1996 great britain banned virtually all handguns, seized them from people who already owned them. piers says it worked great, except it didn't. you're about to find out just how badly it's turned out and why we in america should pay attention.

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"the new york times" and "the huffington post." it depends on the small business. it's funny when people say all small businesses will be affected if the fiscal cliff does hit, but don't forget, there's over 20 million small businesses in this country and it depends what business you're in, where you're located and what business you're in and where your customers are and there are factors when you start to generalize. >> we hear it mostly on the taxation side. if you raise taxes on people who make more than $250,000 don't forget a lot of small businesses file as individuals and make more than $250,000. >> it's absolutely true. i mean, but most small businesses, particularly my readers and the clients that i have, they're bracing for that. it seems an ineshvitablility th there will be increases in capital gains and interest rates and estate taxes next year and that all seems to be on the board. >> health care will get more

expensive if they provide it. >> michelle, remember, it's not going cripple many small businesses. it's a deterrent from them investing and it's a deterrent from them hiring people and it's a deterrent against them hurting and it will not put the clients and people i know out of business. it just hinneders them from growing and that's my biggest concern. >> hindering them from growing and hibbndering them from hirin. and we're talking about the taxation side. and what about the sequestration side, i hate that word, the cutting and spending side. there are all these indiscriminate cuts that happen across the board and they happen in defense and in medical as well. how much are those providing services to those sectors of the economy. >> one is my sister. she's a doctor and runs two medical practices here in the philadelphia area and she's a small business owner and it will hit her pretty hard because medicaid payments will be cut. people in other industries, particularly like you had said,

tied to defense, those people will be hurting as well. however, if you're in the accounting business, what with the increase of taxes not such a bad year for you next year so it depends on what kind of business you're in. >> oh, yeah. if you prepare tax filings you're going to -- it's great, right? the more complicated the taxes get the better it is for you. it's terrible. >> you got it. legal profession, if you're in temporary services because people want to hire, not such a bad year for you or if you provide some type of technology services that will save companies money or reduce their overhead also not such a bad outlook. it happeneds on the small business that you're in, absolutely, some will go through painful adjustments and there's no question, but there are 20 million small businesses and out there and some of them will be doing not so bad. >> jim, good to see you. thanks for joining us from philadelphia. >> thank you. take a look at piers morgan interviewed by larry last week. >> we had this in great britain,

scotland, 15 children killed by a maniac. everybody on the left and right came together and said enough. all handguns in britain were banned. all of them. >> my next guest writes in "the wall street journal" today that mimicking great britain on gun control isn't such a great idea. why? because ever since that ban went into place in the uk gun violence has doubled. here now is professor joyce lee malcolm and author of "guns and violence, the english experience." thanks for joining us professor, give us a look at what happened in the uk after the banning of guns. >> there was a tremendous emotional response and the guns were banned and those people who owned them and the government knew where they were because they were all registered were required to hand them in even the target shooting olympic team was not allowed to keep guns in the country and they had to

practice and keep their guns abroad, but nonetheless, within the decade of guns being withdrawn from these people gun crime with handguns actually doubled and guns are really are awash on the streets and there's a fair amount of street crime using handguns which there hadn't been much of before, and it's beyond which was something that traditionally they never were. so it hasn't worked and what it has done and it's taken the guns away from the law-abiding people that might have used them to protect themselves or to do something else with legitimately. >> what do you say to people who look at united states and say, wow! random mass murderers -- i heard it today. random mass murders in the united states where some whacko killed a bunch of people he doesn't know seems to happen every six months in the united states and it doesn't happen as often in other places.

are they wrong about that? how do you wrap your head around that? >> well, i don't think it happens all that often, although there are copycat acts like what we've seen recently, but britain after they banned the handguns and restricted other guns had another massacre in 2010. i think that you really just have to look at the kind of people who are committing these crimes and how best to control them and treat them, but simply taking guns away from law-abiding people is no answer and it leaves them defenseless. >> what about australia? similar? >> australia, actually the person who perpetrated the port arthur massacre did it within six weeks of the massacre in scotland was a copy cat. this was a person who had a record of violent behavior since childhood and managed to kill a

lot of people with long guns rather than the handguns and the new prime minister of australia at that time got the provinces or states to agree on on strict gun control that he absolutely banned these guns that had been used in the crime and tightened all of the other restrictions, and i should say in australia and great britain that there was very strict gun control with these massacres and that had not stopped them and in australia, while there are not any more gun massacres there have been massacres using arson and knives and other means. >> i'm glad you raise that because we began a gun control debate last night on "the kudlow report and on my face book page we announced them and there was this outpouring of debate and there are always going to be

whackos who want to do things, but if they use a knife they won't be as deadly as someone who uses a gun and that's why we should ban guns. does that float with you? >> they did use a knife for a massacre and also arson, gas. there are other ways if you're determined to kill a lot of people, and in fact, one of the issues had been that a lot of suicides had been committed with guns and those went down in australia, but suicide by other means went up. >> so what should we do, if anything, do you think? >> i think the best thing is -- well, there are two things. i think you need to try to set up some better way to deal with the people who are really violent and mentally ill and we've seriously fallen short on that because many of these people are not only ill, but people knew they were a danger and the other thing is these people who want to commit a

massacre and something labelled a gun-free zone, the aurora shooting at that batman film took it as a gun-free zone. there were other theaters in that area showing the bat man film, but the shooter went to the theater that made it clear that no one there was going to have a weapon. >> you bring up a good point. i asked last night on the show to a gun control advocate and if we handed out signs, this is a gun-free home, zero, right? because they think they would be inviting people to choose them over somebody else who maybe does have a gun, right? we seem to think that this is a good idea in places where -- in public places where people congregate. it's odd because people want to advertise that they didn't have any means of protecting themselves. in places like israel there's almost always someone armed so schools do not get attacked that way or streetcorners where

somebody might want to commit an atrocity. there's somebody in the area who is armed and, of course, 39 of our states have these shall conceal and carry laws and they're there because there's a sense that they really deter crime and it will mean that very few people will be attacked because they'll know who is armed and who isn't. >> professor, thank you for inviting us. >> thanks for having me. professor joyce lee malcolm. you've heard of taking pills for depression, should you take a pill for sadness? some psychiatrists say yes. some say that's not a good idea and he's worried about where this will take us.

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an update on the developing story out of washington tonight. the white house confirms there will be a face-to-face meeting on the fiscal cliff tomorrow. the president, speaker boehner, harry reid, nancy pelosi, mitch mcconnell will all be there. this could be the beginning of a real endgame for the fiscal cliff conflict. we will keep you updated on any new developments tonight and throughout the day tomorrow on cnbc. now the american psychiatric association says it is okay to give antidepressants to people who are grieving over a recently lost loved one. again, these people are not diagnosed with clinical depression. these are people who have suffered a real loss. can a pill really help you with that?

here now is beverly hills psychiatrist dr. carol lieberman. is this a good idea? >> thank you. the whole mental health system is actually falling apart and it goes beyond bereavement and depression. actually, bereavement has a lot of similarities to major depression or at least in some people's cases. the depression comes from loss. so whether it's the loss of a job or a loss of a relationship or a loss of a loved one there really are similar symptoms like a sense of sadness like loss of interest or pleasure in activities that you were involved with before, sleeping changes, eating changes. >> i always thought antidepressants were for people who felt like that all of the time regardless of what was happening in their life. >> no, major depression is usually thought of as people who have's genetic predisposition of

depression. you can find family members that have had depression and there is something that happens in their life that triggers it. in that sense you can compare it to bereavement, but, you know, it's just like you can think of a cough. there can be lots of different reasons why people get coughs. you could be eating crackers that make you cough, you can have pneumonia or cancer. you can give someone a lozenge, but if you don't get to the bottom of why this punish has a cough they can die. it's the same thing in psychiatry, if you don't have psycho therapy along with whatever pills people are given, that's the problem. today psychiatrists because of insurance, psychiatrists have been turned into pill pushers. i call it in and out burger psychiat psychiatry, it's ridiculous.

too many psychiatrists are doing mid-visits. a mid-visit is a 15 to 30-minute visit where all you talk about where the patient is the medication, their side effects. >> when you're talking about all of this i want to pivot with a different topic that i was talking about with the professor. i think it's been a travesty in the wake of newtown, and yes, we should have a conversation about gun control and there should be parody with taking care of the mental health of americans. that discussion has been drowned out or lost or lost or never, ever happened. mr. lanza was obviously a very sick individual and needed help. i'm not sure the mental health discussion has gotten enough attention. what do you think? >> no, it hasn't. in fact, what's been happening is, of course, there's been more stereo typing stereotyping ever people with mental illness calling these people crazy. yes, he probably did have autism and/or asperger's, but people with those disorders don't

generally become violent and what's interesting is that on some of the stories on the internet there are people who have made -- posted comments blaming what he did because there have been some unconfirmed reports that maybe he was take something medication. people have made comments blaming the shooting rampage on the medication. this isn't true. the problem is that people -- anybody who needs medication needs to be in therapy. weekly psycho therapy and that's where the system is falling down. >> yeah. >> all right. >> dr. lieberman, thank you so much. we really appreciate it. it's one of the discussions that i think we need to have more of. what to do with the situation with mental health. it was totally lost during the obama care discussion and it's still getting lost here as well in the wake of newtown. good to see you tonight. we really appreciate it. that's it for tonight's show. thanks so much for watching and we'll be back here tomorrow night and you have to stay tuned and something can actually happen on the fiscal cliff.

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